1. A God exists who created and ordered the world and watches over human life on earth.
True.
2. God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions.
True.
3. The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about one’s self.
NOT TRUE.
4. God does not need to be particularly involved in one’s life except when God is needed to resolve a problem.
DEFINITELY NOT TRUE.
5. Good people go to heaven when they die.
NOT TRUE.
The more you travel Northbound in Europe, the more people become quiet and especially reserved. The most extreme example of this phenomenon definitely is the nonexistence of small talk in Finland.
Finnish people do not know what small talk is — it is nonexistent in their language, and some children only lear about small talk when learning English in school:
They were taught at school that they had to make small talk in English because foreigners do. And that actually they didn’t even know about small talk outside the English lessons.
(The last quote was taken from The Helsinki Times, but I could not retrieve the original newspaper article.)
Talking to fill up silences is not done — that’s why sudden silences at Finnish receptions or other social gatherings can last for minutes at a time. Your Finnish companions don’t mind the silence at all — why talk about something without having a good, relevant reason ? — but you might find it rather uncomfortable.
The same conversations can also happen in other Nordic places such as Trondheim, Tromsø and the like, for that matter (that’s where I encountered them myself), but I like those silences a whole lot better than constant American-like babbling — as if some people are afraid of the absence of the notes.
But not the Finnish vikings.
They let the silence be, so do not even try to fill it up with noise —
And never EVER start about the weather.
OK Joel, I took your friend request. You asked for it! Dont get upset!
You see….I AM A HERETIC.
Why am I a heretic? Welllllll……1) I believe Jesus the Messiah came to earth to bring peace between God and Humans. Not to bring peace between humans. The Bible says variously that Jesus came to bring a sword. And strife. When your believe you will be persecuted, not loved. The world will hate you. GASP! HERESY!!!!!!
The myth that every humans is supposed to hug and love everybody else, or else they are not a Christian…that is a Marxist idea. Not a Christian idea. GASP! HERESY!!!!!!
Another heresy: The King James Bible is just a translation done by flawed scholars 500 years ago. It is nothing special. GASP! HERESY!!!!
Because of the above two ideas to which I do not conform, i have had tones of Christians block me on facebook.
Another heresy: Common descent. Mike Behe told me personally he believes in common descent. the historical trail says nothing about the “mechanism” whereby one form turned into another form. TEG, The Engineering God, tweaked every species. this takes, of course, two individual organisms to be tweaked in order to have a reproducing pair, and to get a population going. GASP! HERESY!!!! IT’S NOT YEC!!!!!!
Its ID!!!!!!! My view it’s not naturalistic at all. Its theistic.
Or maybe it’s even biologos!!!! In that case Francis Collins is a fellow heretic (I guess). According to some people, hell will be crammed full of the biologos.
So, you see, you friended a very definite heretic. You are guaranteed to be certifiably irritated.
Reasons why I cannot attend Berean Baptist Church any more. It Is Not Safe.
My church has a 12 step group. They constantly do something that nukes my week.
So there is another group they have called “Untying the Knots.” I told them I could go if “they dont try to FIX me.”
This leads to a discussion with a pastor and I haven’t had that yet. I want a chance to explain to him why adult children of alcoholics cannot attend the church 12 step group – it is a matter of crosstalk.
[see below for ACA material on crosstalk].
Meanwhile as to why I am maybe leaving the church: I do need to give the pastors background material such as the Big Red Book as they can understand this population group of adult children. So the church stops spiritual malpractice and stops sabotaging the recovery of adult children in their congregation. Which I have witnessed first hand.
Anyway, looking at https://untyingknots.org/2021/06/02/hello-world/ I see some principles.
Module 1:
The importance of, and how to create a safe group environment to help us sort through significant life issues.
BINGO! Cross Talk shames and shuts down adult children by triggering their childhood survivor skills .(aka the laundry list). Its like pouring booze down the throat of an alcoholic. VERY UNKIND FOR A CHURCH TO DO THIS.
Module 4:
Why God the Father is the only one we should be listening to concerning the questions of, “Who we are, what we are worth, and where is life found.”
Given that statement, why then do the fundamentalists insist THEY are the ones who give advice and try to tell the members how to live and how to follow God rather than letting God speak to the member? That *IS* the source of the urge to cross talk. “I’m proper, you’re not, you need to repent, that will fix you.” Which is nonsense according to Module 4 above. After getting advice from people you are thinking about what the people said, not what God said. They need to speak THEIR OWN JOURNEY, not yours. WATCH THEIR OWN BOBBER, not yours. Its worse. The fundamentalists want you to cross talk other people and mind their bobber, as if it is any of your business. This is part of their religious conviction.
I spent the last year telling them no, I work only on me. You work on you, I work on me. But they are not listening. They still have to dump a bunch of unwelcome unsolicited advice on you. So in 8 weeks I have not been back.
Tomorrow I am trying another bible study. its not safe so I won’t tell them anything about me ever again. If they don’t know anything they cannot comment on me.
Meanwhile I am going to secular adult children 12 step groups who don’t have Christian PIETY issues. who aren’t FULL OF THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
God speaks to me in those secular groups. I cannot hear God’s voice at Berean Baptist Church because the people talk over him.
If only they would stick to the scriptures and keep their freaking extra-biblical opinions to themselves.
How many people in the universe experience this? I feel like I hear it from tons of folks.
So, is this a Baptist thing? I don’t think so. There is no doctrine that says to do this. Quite the contrary, Mark Chapter 7 speaks against self righteousness and my church gave a sermon on this on July 28th.
Is it a fundamentalist thing? Maybe so. Why? It has to do with tribes. “Our tribe is proper, yours is not. Comply with our tribe.” “Our tribe does it right, your does not, so comply with our tribe. Your are wrong. Your life is wrong. Repent.” It is all based on rules and shame and things artificial.
All humans do this of course. But why does a church do it?
Is there any hope? I don’t know. Right now I am stuck. I have to try something new. It might go sideways because of the culture of fundamentalism. I am sort of paper thin these days. Out of gas. Running on empty. I went to church to get refilled and revitalized and instead I got this crap.
Sept 15, 2024: I tried a new class on worldviews. This changes my mind about leaving the church. The material looks dynamite. The fact the church is investing in this class shows they have their thinking hats on. And over the last year I had not seen that much thinking effort put into the church direction.
A letter from an anonymous person raised an issue over her kids. Here is her letter and some responses.
Hi All,
I am looking for resources to share with my kids (oldest is 12 but they all can handle middle-grade type stuff – my oldest loves to read pretty advanced tech books, has read the Jurassic Park novel, etc.).
Long story short – I am divorced and since the divorce the ex has taken a very deep dive into AiG, among other troubling things, and is doing his best to indoctrinate the kids. He subscribes to AiG TV (or whatever it is) and the kids have tablets at his house with all the media on it. He “homeschools” them on the weekends (they go and have always gone to public school) with AiG materials.
One of my bigger concerns is that he’s planning on taking the kids to the Creation Museum and Ark Encounter next Summer. From what I have gleaned about it from YouTube videos, etc., it just sounds traumatizing for my more sensitive (and ND) kids.
So I think I have this school year to try to inoculate the kids as best I can in preparation of that trip, and of course long term I want my kids to not be afraid to ask questions, to feel free to think for themselves and make their own decisions. A big concern is that the kids are being taught that anyone who doesn’t embrace YEC isn’t a Christian (and really is evil) – and I don’t want them to be worried about my salvation if/when I speak openly to them about my own concerns with AiG, or their own salvation as they grow and hopefully start to ask their own questions.
So I’m looking for media of all types that can gently and gradually influence/open their minds to know it’s ok to have doubts, to want to think twice, or even to learn more about evolution (right now they can recite all the reasons why evolution, and those who think it is correct, is stupid and wrong – in their words). I will support them whatever they belive – but I want them to decide for themselves, and I’m not ok with the extremist take of YEC (us vs. them, and that the denial of YEC is the root of all evils in the world) that AiG promotes!
They will outright reject anything that blatantly states anything but the YEC viewpoint (and, for that matter, any children’s bible that has a “bathtub”ark in it…) so it really does have to be a subtle, gentle approach.
Books are great, podcasts are even better, and videos, too, although we don’t have tons of time to sit and watch but we do do a lot of driving so listening is great!
And if this isn’t the best group to post this question in, I appreciate references to other groups that would be helpful, too!
Thank you in advance!!!
One person answered:
You’re in a difficult spot. I’d probably advise letting them know that you don’t agree on everything they’re being told and many fine Christians have a different viewpoint.
Another answer:
Know that your children probably see YEC as the bedrock on which their entire faith is grounded. Attacking YEC head on will be seen as an attack on Christianity itself. This tends to be based on the following arguments: 1. If the earth wasn’t created in 6 days, then God is lying; 2. Jesus can’t be the second Adam if there was no first Adam, 3. Life comes through Jesus as death came through Adam, 4. There was no death before sin. I’m sure you’re aware that those are all straw man arguments and don’t hold up, so I won’t go into detail unless you ask. So what I would recommend is teaching them about other interpretations outside of a YEC context. Show them the importance of context. Let them know that we can disagree charitably with other viewpoints and calling people names for disagreeing is not christ-like.
As for exposing them to real science, try to avoid (for now) making it “science vs YEC”. If they ask why they should learn about “wrong things”, explain that we should always try to understand ideas we disagree with and make sure we’re disagreeing with things others are actually claiming and that even those with the best intentions have trouble presenting strong versions of other viewpoints. Maybe show them videos of people non-charitably presenting YEC or Christian positions to illustrate the point.
Resources:
My response:
I go to a Baptist church that does not have a worldwide global flood as part of it’s statement of faith. It also does not hold to any particular doctrine of origins. So this AiG/YEC idea stands outside church doctrine and is something that is added on as an extra. My church is not fundamentalist either. The church is, as far as I know, in line with the Fundamentals. But as Stackhouse points out, fundamentalism took the name but only the name and did not take the principles of the Fundamentals, and is just a cultural movement.
So a church can endorse the principles of the Fundamentals but not be fundamentalist.
This idea of adding onto scripture bothers me. I see Answer in Genesis as non-Christian. Just like Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Christian. The doctrine is different. The ontology is different. The epistemology is different. It has a different concept of knowledge than Christianity. And a different concept of science. And many of the AiG followers destroy the work of the blood of Christ by requiring belief in things which have nothing to do with Christ as a condition of salvation. So to me it is like voodoo. Or the Mormons. Or the Moonies. It is a religion based on the bible. It is a Christian-like religion. But it is different than Christianity. It has a lot of philosophical and logical mistakes involved in it. And it distorts the bible. I would not call it a heresy but it would be fair if the catholic church were to declare it a heresy.
The pharisees were a non-Christian religion, but they were based on the bible. What about the Arians? The Donatists? Both bible-based heresies. Most heresies are bible based.
AiG is a big faith killer for millions of people. Perhaps it is a cult?
Look at Mark Chapter 7. Verse 6. What is the foundation of faith? Is it a crowd of people? Is it a teaching? Is it a status? A way of life? Is it a doctrine or an understanding of Genesis? Why are people so vested in one particular interpretation of Genesis to the exclusion of all others?
My thoughts on Mark 7, based on a sermon by Deven MacDonald.
Mark 7:
1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[b]
Hypocrisy.
Why is it hypocrisy? Because it focuses on what people can see, not what God sees.
When Christians focus on the externally visible sin of another but ignore the inner transforming work of God they are being hypocrites.
Check all the boxes!!!!! Then you are a proper Christian.
Handwashing is an external human behavior. The pharisees criticized Jesus over this external behavior. Jesus focused on the heart as seen by God.
The trap of self righteousness.
1a. Self righteous people are quick to attack. Why?
The trap is building identity on an exterior outwardly visible stuff. Their identity is fragile. They will lash out at anything or any one who challenges that fragile identity.
The self righteous also criticize the sinner who has come to experience God and forgiveness. And anybody who celebrates a sinner coming to God is also criticized. Why? Because the latter person isn’t likewise criticizing the sinner.
Happened to me just tonight.
1b. Repeating, Self righteous people are quick to attack. Why?
Because in large part they don’t understand grace.
2. Self Righteous people are quick to make up rules that aren’t actually found in the bible. (verse 5 was a ritual about hand washing).
3. Self righteous people are quick to focus on outward habits and practices as the foundation for their standing with God.
4. Self righteous people are quick to justify their actions.
WHAT DEFILES A PERSON?
Continuing in Mark 7:
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” [16] [f]
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly.
So, What comes out of the HEART is what defiles. Not the external.
WHAT SAVES US?
Titus 3:5
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Not because of the criticism of instruction of the self righteous Christian.
1 John 1:9
New International Version
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Remember point 4 (above) about the self righteousness? 4. Self righteous people are quick to justify their actions. In other words, their criticism of sinners.
Christ will forgive your sins, even if Christians won’t.
My Sin of the Day (and why I wrote this now).
My sin of the day was I celebrated a lesbian who came to Christ and was transformed. Then I did the horrible: I said I wish I could bring my other lesbian friend to church to hear the gospel. But the people at church would only condemn.
Then I was attacked by the self righteous Christians (who want to condemn and attack lesbians instead of bring them to Christ.).
I kept repeating it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, not me. And not them.
The critics kept ignoring this. It is clear they want to criticize sins of others. Even if it means those folks don’t get saved.
Marking a blog by ThatChristianNerd on medium.com.
How Old Is The Earth? Evolutionary Creationism 11 https://medium.com/@ThatChristianNerd/how-old-is-the-earth-evolutionary-creationism-11-f843d00537b0
Brian is actually real. He somehow turned celeb ( I guess ).
Here he (bald, glasses, right) appears on PBS on the local Minnesota PBS political program with Kathy Wurzer (left) and her husband (middle).
Marking links to the blog by Dr Ken W Smith, a mathematician I have been chatting with.
https://longingforabettercountry.blogspot.com
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KZTdY7-25XipNPs5AEygxsika0bmWLzg/view?pli=1
I wanted to mark a link to an article by John G. Stackhouse, Jr., November 8, 2022 in Christian Scholars Review.
We believe that God’s justifying grace must not be separated from His sanctifying power and purpose. God commands us to love Him supremely and others sacrificially, and to live out our faith with care for one another, compassion toward the poor and justice for the oppressed. With God’s Word, the Spirit’s power, and fervent prayer in Christ’s name, we are to combat the spiritual forces of evil. In obedience to Christ’s commission, we are to make disciples among all people, always bearing witness to the gospel in word and deed.
Source: https://www.efca.org/sof
My comments.
Why point this out? The doctrinal statement about caring for others is sometimes misunderstood. Some people think it means “be a busy body”. And they go too far. Why? They think God has ordered them to do that! My question is, “Does the EFCA actually endorse this mistake?” I do not think so. And neither does any Baptist church. Try telling that to the Baptists!
On the statement:
“others sacrificially, and to live out our faith with care for one another, compassion toward the poor and justice for the oppressed.”
Justice for the oppressed precludes allowing continued abuse by abusers just because one has compassion for the abuser. There is no requirement on a Christian to allow himself to continue to be abused in any fashion.
A person in 12 step recovery has no moral obligation to allow himself to continue to be abused. There is no teaching in the bible that says he does. This may mean moving across country in order to stop abuse. It may mean putting up walls and barriers. And it may mean complaining to civil authorities for protection.
It means watching one’s own bobber, not somebody else’s, especially not the abuser’s. It means not getting involved in the drama of other parties.
I suspect that a lot of people believe when they comment upon another’s confession they are “caring for one another” when in fact they are sabotaging the other’s 12-step recovery. This is especially true for ACA’s (Adult Children of Alcoholics). The Big Red Book has at least three sections dedicated to explaining why cross-talk (commenting on another’s story confessed in a meeting) is forbidden. (More on this in a separate post).
The caring thing to do is to keep opinions to one’s self until such time as a confessor indicates he welcomes feedback. That is normal practice in an ACA group. Apparently it is normal practice to violate it in a Baptist Church. The EFCA really needs to clarify this. And so do all Baptist churches.
To me this is a matter of lack of grace. Not focusing on grace but instead focusing on rules. Rules that people make up for other people. A biblical example: condemning someone for eating meat offered to idols. I.E., not allowing Christians moral freedom as believers. As I recall it is called a ‘principle of deference’. Not putting rules on people. And this would include not putting non-doctrinal personal beliefs on others.
I now have decades of experience with Baptist style churches that think they are doing therapy because it is a ministry. They want to “fix you” rather than let God fix you or let you experience God at your own pace. Instead of telling you their own story they tell you how your story should be. How you should be, because you are not good enough. Sometimes they hunt sin, your sin, and become sin hunters. They will tell you that you need to repent of something.
The result on the community:
I have met dozens, if not hundreds, of people who call themselves “recovering fundamentalists.” I am now one of them. I may even have to change churches because I cannot hear the voice of God when people are handing me a whole bunch of rules and beliefs to follow when it is merely their personal opinion.
Why I study Doctrine.
This is why I study doctrine. I want to know what a church’s doctrine is. Because when people go nuts on me I would like to know if it is just them and not the church.
Source: Protestant Reformed Churches in America:
https://www.prca.org/about/official-standards/creeds/ecumenical/chalcedon
The Chalcedonian Definition (also called the Chalcedonian Creed or the Definition of Chalcedon) is the declaration of the dyophysitism of Christ’s nature, adopted at the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451.
This refuted monophysitism.
The Creed of Chalcedon, A.D. 451, is not mentioned by name in any of our three forms of unity, but the doctrine set forth in it is clearly embodied in Article 19 of our Confession of Faith. It constitutes an important part of our ecumenical heritage. The Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon settled the controversies concerning the person and natures of our Lord Jesus Christ and established confessionally the truths of the unity of the divine person and the union and distinction of the divine and human natures of Christ. It condemned especially the error of Nestorianism, which denied the unity of the divine person in Christ; the error of Apollinarianism, which denied the completeness of Christ’s human nature; and the error known as Eutychianism, which denied the duality and distinction of the divine and human natures of our Lord Jesus Christ. What was confessionally established at Chalcedon concerning the person and natures of Christ has continued to be the confession of the church catholic ever since that time.
We, then, following the holy fathers, all with one consent teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a rational soul and body; coessential with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning have declared concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the creed of the holy fathers has handed down to us.
I believe in the creed because I reject monophysitism.
Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith:
That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.
Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.
Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.
Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.
But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.
Now this is the true faith:
That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God’s Son,
is both God and human, equally.
He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.
Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God’s taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.
He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father’s right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
I agree with the creed. I am a trinitarian.
Source: https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/creeds/athanasian-creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I affirm the Nicene Creed.
Source: https://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed
Comparison of Nicene Creed 325 AD and revised Nicene Creed 381 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#Comparison_between_creed_of_325_and_creed_of_381
Greek Version
Πιστεύω εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.
Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων·
φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο.
Τὸν δι’ ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα
ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα.
Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα.
Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς.
Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός.
Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.
Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζῳοποιόν,
τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον,
τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον,
τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν.
Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.
Ὁμολογῶ ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν.
Προσδοκῶ ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν.
Καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος.
Ἀμήν
The Apostles’ Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.
I affirm the apostles creed.
Source: Church of England. https://www.churchofengland.org/our-faith/what-we-believe/apostles-creed
Other links on my beliefs:
https://randomraindrops.com/berean-baptist-church-statement-of-faith/
The points of belief number 15. I may have further comments in the future as I ponder the reference scriptures. These 15 are doctrinal beliefs, but I personally have more than the 15. Such as the Nicean Creed. I adhere to certain creeds and certain confessions and that is part of my personal faith separate from these 15 points but not in conflict with them.
We believe the Bible is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and has supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct.
Psalm 119:89; Romans 15:4; 1 Corinthians 10:11; 2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 2 Peter 1:21
I believe the manuscripts were inspired and given error free. In the original manuscripts. Do we have those? I don’t know. Have they been preserved intact? Good question. I don’t know.
I do know a lot of alleged Christians claim interpretations about the meaning of the manuscripts which are vastly flawed.
We believe there is one living and true God, eternally existing in three persons; these are equal in every divine perfection, and they execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence, and redemption.
Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 3:16; Matthew 28:19; John 5:18; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 1:20; Philippians 2:6
I agree with this.
We believe in God the Father, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, an infinite personal spirit perfect in holiness, wisdom, power, and love. We believe he concerns himself mercifully in the affairs of men, hears and answers prayer, and saves from sin and eternal death all who come to him through Jesus Christ.
Genesis 1:1; Matthew 6:9-13; John 3:16, 4:24, 5:26, 17:11, 25; Romans 8:33
I agree. Spirit.
We believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son, conceived by the Holy Spirit. We believe in his virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, and teachings. We believe in his substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, perpetual intercession for his people, and personal visible return to earth.
Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:34-35; John 1:1, 3:16, 11:25; Acts 1:3, 9, 16:31; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5; Revelation 1:7
I agree.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, who came forth from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment and to regenerate, sanctify, and empower all who believe in Jesus Christ. We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Christ and is an abiding helper, teacher, and guide.
John 14:17, 16:8; Acts 5:1-4; Romans 8:1-17, 15:16; I Corinthians 2:12, 3:16; Titus 3:5; I John 2:27
I agree.
We believe that all people are created by God in his image to glorify him forever. Because the first couple, Adam and Eve, disobeyed God’s command when tested, they and all people since are alienated from God and are sinners by nature and by choice. Because God is holy and cannot tolerate sin, all people are under condemnation and unable to save themselves.
Genesis 1:26; Psalm 50:15; Matthew 5:16; Romans 3:23, 15:6; Revelation 4:11
I agree.
We believe that Jesus Christ was crucified to bear our condemnation and that “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” By doing so, we are freed from condemnation and given eternal life.
Romans 10:9; John 1:12, 3:8, 6:40, 14:6; Ephesians 2:8-9; Isaiah 53:5-6; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Peter 3:9
I agree. There is absolutely no statement here about the age of the earth, or how the earth was made. There is no belief requirement pertaining to those issues.
We believe in the Universal Church, a living spiritual body composed of all regenerated believers of whatever race or nation. We believe in the local church consisting of a company of believers in Jesus Christ, baptized in a credible profession of faith, and associated with worship, work, and fellowship.
Matthew 28:17-20; Acts 2:41-42; I Corinthians 12:12-31
I agree.
We believe that Christians should live for the glory of God and the well-being of others, that their conduct should be blameless before the world, that they should be faithful stewards of their possessions, and that they should seek to realize for themselves and others the full stature of maturity in Christ.
I Corinthians 2:14-3:3; Galatians 5:22-26; Ephesians 5:1-33
I agree.
On conduct I have run into some issues at Berean.
Part of promoting the well being of others is speaking the truth in love and being edifying. And that means allowing others Christian freedoms. It means allowing the Holy Spirit to convict Christians of sin and not trying to take over his job as if a human could ever do a better job than God. It means not being a busy body but to focus on one’s own relationship with God, one’s own sin, not the sins of others.
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has committed two ordinances to the local church: baptism and the Lord’s Supper. We believe that Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Triune God. We believe that the Lord’s Supper was instituted by Christ to commemorate his substitutionary and atoning death. We believe that these two ordinances should be observed and administered until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 8:26-40; Romans 6:3-5; I Corinthians 11:17-34
I agree.
We believe in the personal and visible return of the Lord Jesus Christ to earth and the establishment of his Kingdom. We believe in the resurrection of the body, the final judgment, the eternal joy of the righteous, and the endless suffering of the wicked.
John 14:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20:11-15
I agree.
We believe that every human being has direct relations with God and is responsible to God alone in all matters of faith and that each church is independent and must be free from interference by any ecclesiastical or political authority.
I agree.
We believe that local churches can best promote the cause of Jesus Christ by cooperating with one another in a denominational organization. Such an organization, whether a regional or district conference, exists and functions by the will of the churches. Cooperation in a conference is voluntary and may be terminated at any time. The church may likewise cooperate with interdenominational fellowships on a voluntary independent basis.
I agree.
We believe that Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Triune God. It is the first step of obedience following salvation and serves as a public declaration of the believer’s devotion to Christ and a commitment to their local community of faith. Immersion in water identifies the believer with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as one dies to self, surrenders to him, and is raised with him in newness of life.
Romans 6:1-5; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Acts 8:36-39; Acts 2:38, 41
At Berean, baptism is required for membership. Attending our First Connection gathering is the first step in baptism and/or membership. If you are interested in being baptized or becoming a member of Berean, sign up for First Connection here:
I agree. I was baptised by immersion at the age of 18 in my home town.
We believe that membership is a covenant relationship with God and one another to pursue the gospel in our lives, our community, and our world. The Bible explains the existence and importance of local churches, as well as the necessity to belong to a local church for our spiritual growth and health.
Accountability:
Hebrews 13:17
Church membership provides accountability for the members and church leadership. Accountability is designed to help us be faithful in our walk with Jesus as well as to help the pastors and elders shepherd and protect the body.
Belonging:
Hebrews 10:24-25
Belonging to a local church provides love, acceptance, stability, and purpose as we intentionally live our lives together as Christ-followers.
Care:
Acts 20:28; Ephesians 4:11-16
As members, we come alongside each other to encourage, equip, and empower one another to grow in our relationship with Jesus.
Biblical Requirements for Membership:
Salvation
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man and is offered freely to all who put their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Baptism
Baptism takes place after salvation when a professing believer is immersed in water in the name of the Triune God. Baptism is not essential for salvation; however, it is essential for obedience.
I agree.
ITS NOT ENOUGH.
I feel like I do not fit.
As of August 2024 I am in a dazed state of confusion.
The church has not proven to be safe space for me. But WHY?
I have constantly been badgered by some of the members to believe in ideas I do not see in scripture. This is on both doctrinal and on practical levels. And I have been badgered to follow a vocation that has not been assigned to me by God, effectively becoming a busy-body. For example, I have been told by parishioners to care too much about people outside the church (people who the church does not even know) and to get involved in the lives of those parties in unhealthy ways that would result in further abusive relationships.
Then there is the matter of becoming excessively involved in the lives of the folks inside the church. I have sometimes been urged to sin-hunt other believers when there is no obvious sin evident. I am supposed to assume there is sin and hunt for it because this does a service for the other person. But this is God’s job, not mine. It is not my task in life to watch other people’s sin and try to convict them of it. Only a busy-body would do such a thing! I am constantly protesting “leave it to God.” It also is not my job to impose external standards of righteousness on anybody.
I do consider it a duty to exhibit GRACE.
These aspects are obviously a Christian life-style choice of some. But they do not derive from the above 15 statements of faith and as far as I can tell they do not derive from scripture either. I want to stick to just the 15 listed points in the statement of faith. I want to stick to just the 15 points and not go beyond that.
A toxic environment.
I have come to a point where I dare not tell anyone about my life, who I am, what is going on with me, or what my personal concerns might be. Why? People have to comment and try to fix me. It seems like they think it is their duty to fix others by giving unwelcome advice not asked for. And they urge others to do likewise!!!! They do not seem to be able to just listen or to tell (teach) solid principles and practices. They have to comment on a person’s journey, on their story, to tell them what they are doing wrong. It is called cross-talk, or, well, gossip. The gossip level is, well, really high.
This creates fear.
It is very important for a person to be able to tell their story without judgement. If you cannot do that then you are not going to trust anybody. You are going to HIDE.
Since I am in treatment for addiction the commentary is incredibly most unwelcome. I cannot hear the voice of God when people are clamoring at me. So, I just have to hide myself and do technical bible study.
This then is the traditional church I have always experienced. People judge and they judge out-of-turn. This kind of fellowship has kept me a stranger for most of my life. I never connected with a church body anywhere. it is a stumbling block.
What is weird is I have found secular (outside the church) organizations that foster trust. The church is failing.
What about Point 15, Belonging: “Belonging to a local church provides love, acceptance, stability, and purpose as we intentionally live our lives together as Christ-followers.”
I don’t find love, acceptance, stability, and purpose. I am an adult child of alcoholics and I am not like other people. I pursue 12 step recovery. And most Christians do not want to hear about that let alone accept it, even though it is in accordance with biblical teaching. As an adult child I have characteristics most people don’t have. Such as the Laundry List. (See other posts — links forthcoming).
How does the church minister to Adult Children? It should be part of the church’s mission, shouldn’t it?
Reading just now in “The Art of Reading Scripture” ed by Ellen Davis & Richard Hays, 2003, essay by Gregory Jones, p154:
… quoting Augustine, “whatever appears in the divine Word that does not lierally pertain to virtuous behavior or to the truth of faith you must take to be figurative. Virtuous behavior pertains to the love of God and of one’s neighbor; the truth of faith pertains to a knowledge of God and of one’s neighbor.”
Augustine, On Christian Faith, 3.10.14.
Earlier in his essay Jones observed from the UM Bishop Kenneth Carder
“It is much easier to argue about creation and evolution than it is to live as though this is God’s World. Or, debating whether a ‘great fish’ really swallowed Jonah is far less costly and risky than acknowledging that God loves our enemies as much as God loves us.” p145.
Ruminate that. HR